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Snowmobile Forums => Political Discussion => Topic started by: SnowBeast on September 04, 2013, 10:25:24 AM

Title: Syria
Post by: SnowBeast on September 04, 2013, 10:25:24 AM
Yeah or neah on the military action?  Not sure but I'm leaning towards go & drop 'em on the runways to curb air warfare against the people....but who are these people that are fighting their gov and why?  Are they jihads, as corrupt as the gov, or not?  Its good to know barrack is at least seeking congressional support first.....this way the left can justify any action .  Of course they did not use this defense against Bush who had vast congress majority behind the Iraq war.  :nono:
Title: Re: Syria
Post by: tony b on September 04, 2013, 10:46:30 AM
feck 'em right in the arse, let the whole Middle East burn, they are neanderthals and I'm sick of spending time/money/american lives to "fix" a problem that will never go away.
Title: Re: Syria
Post by: ZiRT on September 04, 2013, 11:23:57 AM
I'm in agreement with Tony on this one. We've made more enemies than friends trying to help the world, time to pull back and let them take care of their own business.
Title: Re: Syria
Post by: Kingpin on September 04, 2013, 01:08:11 PM
Yeah or neah on the military action?  Not sure but I'm leaning towards go & drop 'em on the runways to curb air warfare against the people....but who are these people that are fighting their gov and why?  Are they jihads, as corrupt as the gov, or not?  Its good to know barrack is at least seeking congressional support first.....this way the left can justify any action .  Of course they did not use this defense against Bush who had vast congress majority behind the Iraq war.  :nono:

The POTUS is trying to force congress to take a stand and hold them responsible, which really is not the case.  Congress does not command the millitary and does not conduct foreign policy, by design.  It's a political ploy.  The congress will authorize limited strikes and most likely POTUS will lob some Tomahawk's over at them.  That's all I can see for now, it will be targeted to not make the regime fall and to minimize collateral damage.  In essence it will do very little except allow POTUS to save some face. 

The best action would have been to get some allies on the bandwagon before having an acute case of verbal diarrhea then build the case for action.  He had 2 years from when he said that the Assad regime needed to go.. 
Title: Re: Syria
Post by: SnowBeast on September 04, 2013, 04:30:05 PM
Tony and Zirt....what about those children getting gassed and killed?   Seems cold the UN has not banned together to get them some help.  WTF?
Title: Re: Syria
Post by: Kingpin on September 04, 2013, 05:55:51 PM
Will a targeted strike keep more kids from dying?  That is the operative question..
Title: Re: Syria
Post by: tony b on September 05, 2013, 07:53:38 AM
Tony and Zirt....what about those children getting gassed and killed?   Seems cold the UN has not banned together to get them some help.  WTF?
they've been killing each other for 3000yrs, you think WE (the USA) should go over there and kill some more of them, which will inevitably kill innocents as well, so they'll stop killing each other??  seriously, do ya think that will accomplish anything other than giving both sides of that civil war a united hatred of the USA and cause, by direct and indirect action, the loss of more american lives??  let the whole fecking place burn and we'll sit back and wait for it to implode and send in humanitarian efforts to pick up the pieces.  we've done too much bombing over there already and it hasn't exactly ended well for us.
Title: Re: Syria
Post by: ZiRT on September 05, 2013, 11:16:51 AM
Tony and Zirt....what about those children getting gassed and killed?   Seems cold the UN has not banned together to get them some help.  WTF?
You mean the same kids they strap bombs to and send into our military camps to blow our guys up?
The main problem I have is we've put ourselves into a position where we're screwed either way. 1) We go in and blow everything to hell, there's a regime change, and they, along with the rest of the middle east, turn against us because we're too meddlesome in their affairs. b) We don't go in and everybody, including the rest of the middle east, says we didn't help the innocents.
I say, stay out of it, let their neighbors in Iran, Iraq, etc. help them instead of relying on us to do the work then hate us for it.
Title: Re: Syria
Post by: 6Mile on September 05, 2013, 11:29:13 AM
It is time the US become more of an isolationist nation again.  We are not the world police and our arrogance in thinking we are, has made the United States quite unpopular and quite frankly has put a target on our back.

Personally I think we should sit this one out, time to listen to our elders in the UK.  They want no part of this as well.

As for the POTUS, he should learn to keep his mouth shut and also put Kerry on a vacation.  Putin is making these two look like children.

Where do we think we are going to get the money to do this?  In case anyone has not noticed, we are broke.  We borrow more than we generate. 
Title: Re: Syria
Post by: tony b on September 05, 2013, 12:42:51 PM
It is time the US become more of an isolationist nation again.  We are not the world police and our arrogance in thinking we are, has made the United States quite unpopular and quite frankly has put a target on our back.
this

Quote
Personally I think we should sit this one out, time to listen to our elders in the UK.  They want no part of this as well.
and this
Quote
As for the POTUS, he should learn to keep his mouth shut and also put Kerry on a vacation.  Putin is making these two look like children.
freakin amateur night foreign policy
Quote
Where do we think we are going to get the money to do this?  In case anyone has not noticed, we are broke.  We borrow more than we generate.
and this.
Title: Re: Syria
Post by: Kingpin on September 05, 2013, 01:16:31 PM
It is time the US become more of an isolationist nation again.  We are not the world police and our arrogance in thinking we are, has made the United States quite unpopular and quite frankly has put a target on our back.

Personally I think we should sit this one out, time to listen to our elders in the UK.  They want no part of this as well.

As for the POTUS, he should learn to keep his mouth shut and also put Kerry on a vacation.  Putin is making these two look like children.

Where do we think we are going to get the money to do this?  In case anyone has not noticed, we are broke.  We borrow more than we generate.
Well, my personal opinion is the congress should authorize missile strike only and very limited in scope and target, no free hand to conduct this operation.  Then POTUS and Kerry should shut up.  Kerry had the balls and audacity to suggest that the Arabs wanting to pay for a full war was a good thing.  What a twerp and what a mental midget and coward.  War is not to be decided by who is picking up the tab, are we just mercenaries now, is this guy f'ng for real?  We truly put a price tag on US citizens dying so Arabs can pay for it?  McCain is wrong, Kerry, Obama, etc. = WRONG.  I have no problem lighting another country up, but damn these guys are idiots. 
Title: Re: Syria
Post by: SnowBeast on September 06, 2013, 08:37:59 AM
All nations have agreed to not use WMD, Poison GAS.  Is this not reason enough to get in there and at least stomp those acts?

I think so.  If they were just bombing and shooting as usual, then let them continue as they have what seems like forever.
I'm thnking some of IRAQ wmd from 10 yrs ago made its way into Syria.  Let it fester and see how long it takes for the winds to blow that gas or other WMD our way?  I'm thinking we need to be more pro-active.
Title: Re: Syria
Post by: Kingpin on September 06, 2013, 11:35:24 AM
My very long-winded response.. :ranting:
so, what is the mission and goals?  It's not just hey let's keep them from using gas..  You need to play geo-political chess, not checkers or Assassin's Creed 4.  I agree that using chemical weapons should be dealt with harshly, however, that is a moral argument, of course 99% of US people most likely abhor the violence going on there. However, what change can we effect and at what cost to us?  When I mean cost I don't mean $, I mean total cost down the road and the unintended consequences.  I believe the Syrian regime wants us to get in to the mix, occupiers are always the enemy, ask Afghanistan..

That's the problem, I think the POTUS needs to define the mission and it seems pretty damn murky right now.
-- do we want regime change (Obama said Assad needed to go 2 years ago) -- US State department has that as official position, if we topple the regime we own that mess now in the world's view.
-- do we want to punish them for using chem weps?  -- DoD has that as official position
-- do we want to de-stabilize the regime and allow the rebel groups to win civil war?
-- do we want to install a new regime that is friendly to us at this point in time?
-- do we want to degrade the ability of the regime to use chem weps in the future?
-- do we want to serve up Syria as an example or deterrent to using chemical weapons? 
-- Are we (the US) prepared to deal with blow back from attacking a regime known to harbor terrorists and support them?  -- IE we should expect attacks on our citizens if not our soil
-- Are we prepared for the bad PR of our missiles taking out women and children?
-- Do we have any other nation willing to act (NOT FINANCE) with us? 
-- Are we prepared to put boots on the ground in a significant number?  -- The army estimates it could take more than 50k troops to secure all of the chemical weapons -- this might be a little high, but I bet it's not too far off the mark when you look at what it takes to support combat troops in the field, especially in hostile territory.
-- Are we prepared to go against Russia and Iran?  They both support the Syrian regime, so, you gotta figure that math out. 

Have we exhausted ALL diplomatic means to bring some of these questions to a resolution?
--  I mean to say, your looking to kill people, you better be damned sure your ready to deal with the consequences of killing innocent people.  We hold our soldiers and leaders to a much higher standard than most other countries, especially in that area of the world.  If things go bad and we have boots on the ground, are we prepared to deal with our boys and girls dying execution style and getting strung up on display??  Are we prepared to have our guys off some innocent Syrians, it happens, you put young guys in super high stress situations and bad things happen, look at all the fragging and extra-judical killings that have happened in Iraq and Afghanistan with our troops.


All of those different questions will define different mission parameters.  Until they answer some of those questions, it's kind of hard to get specific and the devil is in these details.  The military needs very clear direction not grey areas like nation building and regime change as stated goals.  Think of an Operations Order for the Army as an example:

Situation -- Provides information essential to subordinate leader's understanding of the situation. -- weather, enemy forces, intelligence, activities, etc
Mission  -- This is a clear, concise statement of the unit's task(s) to be accomplished and the purpose for doing it (who, what, when, where, why, and how).
Execution -- detailed definition of the how the unit will accomplish it's mission.
Service and Support -- Logistics, beans, bullets, and billits, medical, fuel, etc, etc.
Command and Signal -- command and control elements
Title: Re: Syria
Post by: Kingpin on September 06, 2013, 11:51:31 AM
All nations have agreed to not use WMD, Poison GAS.  Is this not reason enough to get in there and at least stomp those acts?

I think so.  If they were just bombing and shooting as usual, then let them continue as they have what seems like forever.
I'm thnking some of IRAQ wmd from 10 yrs ago made its way into Syria.  Let it fester and see how long it takes for the winds to blow that gas or other WMD our way?  I'm thinking we need to be more pro-active.

Answer to your question is NO.  Just because they used it, that does not give the US automatic clear justification to act.  The use of sarin gas in Syria does not represent a clear and imminent danger to the US homeland or US citizens.  If it did, I would absolutely be 100% behind attacking them with more than just cruise missiles.

There is an International War Crimes Tribunal and other organizations set up specifically to deal with that war crime.  IMO, your asking 1 question, but we need to ask questions 7 steps down from the answer to that question. 

The Bush Doctrine of pre-emptive strikes got us into this situation.  After 9/11 we were looking at the world in a very different lens than we see the world today.  So, the doctrine of pre-emption might not be applicable now. 

Title: Re: Syria
Post by: Kingpin on September 06, 2013, 11:53:30 AM
It's already starting..Mission Creep..
http://www.nytimes.com/2013/09/06/world/middleeast/pentagon-is-ordered-to-expand-potential-targets-in-syria-with-a-focus-on-forces.html?_r=0 (http://www.nytimes.com/2013/09/06/world/middleeast/pentagon-is-ordered-to-expand-potential-targets-in-syria-with-a-focus-on-forces.html?_r=0)
Title: Re: Syria
Post by: tony b on September 06, 2013, 02:35:03 PM
All nations have agreed to not use WMD, Poison GAS.  Is this not reason enough to get in there and at least stomp those acts?

I think so.  If they were just bombing and shooting as usual, then let them continue as they have what seems like forever.
I'm thnking some of IRAQ wmd from 10 yrs ago made its way into Syria.  Let it fester and see how long it takes for the winds to blow that gas or other WMD our way?  I'm thinking we need to be more pro-active.
did they use 'em on us??  one of our allies??  feck 'em then not our problem
Title: Re: Syria
Post by: Up Late on September 06, 2013, 11:33:31 PM
Only Obama would try to cover up all his scandals with anther scandal.  :mf_laughbounce2:
Title: Re: Syria
Post by: MNNavy on September 09, 2013, 07:44:29 AM
Only Obama would try to cover up all his scandals with anther scandal.  :mf_laughbounce2:
I'm pretty sure Bill Clinton tried to do the same thing.
Title: Re: Syria
Post by: thnksno on September 09, 2013, 01:49:43 PM
The funniest thing about all this? It IS Obama's war and what's he going after? WMDs! lololol!

We have absolutely NO BUSINESS getting drawn into this BS. The rebels are Al Qweerda based and Assad is a thug, there isn't a side in Syria the US stands with, except innocent victims.

I love it... Kerry says; "Unbelievably small strike."

WTF is that? Is he going to shoot a bottle rocket at Assad? Why bother if the strike is going to be "unbelievably small?"

Zerohedge however hits on Putins new strategy which basically makes Obama out to be the cummunity whoganizer he is.

http://www.zerohedge.com/news/2013-09-09/russia-launches-new-surprising-strategy-appeasement (http://www.zerohedge.com/news/2013-09-09/russia-launches-new-surprising-strategy-appeasement)

As for the 1400 gassed including 400 kids... Cut that number by 4/5ths, those subhumans routinely STAGE for journalists mock rebellions, attacks, etc. for PHOTO OPS.

But, to put it another way if it is an accurate number. As of July 31st 1400 people HAVE BEEN SHOT in Chicago resulting in about 300 deaths, MANY of which are CHILDREN.

What's the difference if you use poison gas or cheap Hi-Points to kill kids?
Title: Re: Syria
Post by: greekboy on September 09, 2013, 03:45:29 PM
Who's the enemy ? We stand to kill as many women and children as we stand to protect.

No such thing as "smart bombs" they land where they land.

Title: Re: Syria
Post by: Kingpin on September 09, 2013, 04:34:51 PM
There is nothing surgical about a tomahawk cruise missile or a JDAM (Joint Direct Attack Munition).
Title: Re: Syria
Post by: thnksno on September 09, 2013, 09:03:44 PM
@ SnowBeast, Do you think you can really reason with these folks?

http://www.albawaba.com/editorchoice/yemen-child-marriage-human-rights-519066 (http://www.albawaba.com/editorchoice/yemen-child-marriage-human-rights-519066)

We need to move on, like we did almost 1400 years ago.
Title: Re: Syria
Post by: MNNavy on September 10, 2013, 07:40:08 AM
But, to put it another way if it is an accurate number. As of July 31st 1400 people HAVE BEEN SHOT in Chicago resulting in about 300 deaths, MANY of which are CHILDREN.
While I agree with your overall point, I think you need to recheck your stats. July 31 was only 41 days ago. If your figures were accurate, that would be an average of almost 35 shootings and nearly 10 deaths per day.
Title: Re: Syria
Post by: greekboy on September 10, 2013, 07:46:17 AM
Just like in Iraq, IF we attack - we've taken the element of surprise away by announcing our intentions to the media and grand standing in hearings.

For the future President Obama, if you plan on attacking another country - don't tell Oprah b/c she tells everyone else....  :whistle:
Title: Re: Syria
Post by: thnksno on September 10, 2013, 08:21:10 AM
While I agree with your overall point, I think you need to recheck your stats. July 31 was only 41 days ago. If your figures were accurate, that would be an average of almost 35 shootings and nearly 10 deaths per day.

The last update on the crime blog was July 31 as in Jan 1, 2013 through July 31, 2013.

Here's a more up to date source.

http://www.heyjackass.com/ (http://www.heyjackass.com/)

(http://www.heyjackass.com/wordpress/wp-content/uploads/2013/03/city_map-320x483.png)
Title: Re: Syria
Post by: Kingpin on September 10, 2013, 08:36:56 AM
Crisis averted, Syria has announced it will turn over it's chemical weapons..  :lmfao:  Old Vlad really pulled one over the Banger in chief...Now the idea of weapons inspectors and securing this mess will turn to the next 3 years of Obama's presidency with rather well timed events to insure the US foreign policy is crippled to say the least.
Title: Re: Syria
Post by: greekboy on September 10, 2013, 08:54:24 AM
It's pretty comical that we're trusting one enemy to enforce rules onto another enemy. LOL.... Only in America..... and only with the worst president in our history.  :wacko:
Title: Re: Syria
Post by: 6Mile on September 10, 2013, 11:58:47 AM
Like I said before, Putin made Obama and Kerry look like children before, but now he stepped up the game and completely made the Obama administration look like fools.  Give him props for taking the initiative.

This administration is doing everything it can to f-up everything, complete incompetence.  remember when Kerry was running for DNC nomination for president  All the hype about this international credibility and how he would be the leader the world needed?  Well He and Obama just proved that pontificating about an issue gets nothing done.  Putin took action and we now are in a position dictated to us by forces outside our government. 
Title: Re: Syria
Post by: tony b on September 10, 2013, 12:50:17 PM
the USA is no longer a nation that leads the way.  witness the decline of a nation beginning today.  I feel sorry for our kids/grandkids.
Title: Re: Syria
Post by: Kingpin on September 10, 2013, 01:10:50 PM
I'm sure many history teachers will have good materials to show how you can screw foreign policy up.  However, we might not know the ramifications of this colossal screw for many years. 

Obama could have unwisely did a limited strike as soon as they verified it was gas that was used and been done with it, now this is gonna never die down in foreign policy circles..

He who hesitates ...
Title: Re: Syria
Post by: thnksno on September 10, 2013, 01:34:28 PM
LOL! Nan and Lurch are running around saying the bumbling of this is a great success!

Quote
He added, "Nothing focuses the mind like the prospect of a hanging," claiming the "credible threat" of military action is what brought the Assad regime to its knees.

Help kickstart WWIII!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=z-sdO6pwVHQ (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=z-sdO6pwVHQ)

(http://sysd.org/wp-content/uploads/2012/05/borat.jpg)
Title: Re: Syria
Post by: thnksno on September 10, 2013, 08:59:57 PM
P-A-T-H-E-T-I-C!

But did you expect anything more?
Title: Re: Syria
Post by: tony b on September 11, 2013, 08:12:07 AM
i didn't even watch, couldn't stomach it.
Title: Re: Syria
Post by: thnksno on September 11, 2013, 10:46:50 AM
He's backed into a corner so far, I almost felt sorry for him as he twisted and turned to spread his lies.

It was only 15 minutes long and had some comedic value.
Title: Re: Syria
Post by: tony b on September 11, 2013, 12:26:11 PM
even his most ardent supporters are running away from him on this. :laugh-til-cry:
Title: Re: Syria
Post by: SnowBeast on September 11, 2013, 12:43:42 PM
I guess I been out of the news loop on this Syria BS. So, Muslim extremists are taking up arms against the Syrian gov or vice versa (which would be better), which was said to use chem weapons (WMD) against its citizens (or muslim acitivsts?)?  I know Bush or republicans always get get the blame by media/fags,  despite any facts......... but can anyone BRIEFLY give a synopsis of WTF is going on with this deal?  Is Barrack helping these kids, or those jihads douche, or just acting due to the WMD line being crossed by Syria gov?
Title: Re: Syria
Post by: greekboy on September 11, 2013, 04:06:36 PM
Obama drew a line in the sand and said Syria, don't cross it or else. They crossed it. Then he announced we would strike Syria, but wanted a vote from Congress. They (Congress) are sitting in a room somewhere flipping a coin, saying best of 3? best of 5? best of 7?, etc. Now Russia has stepped in and told America that they would take care of everything, don't worry about it. Now Obama is asking Congress to sit tight to wait for that Russian help.

So, to sum the whole thing up. Obama is telling America that Russia will save us all. Somehow I'm pretty sure Russia will soon be getting American foreign aid as a result of their involvement. Maybe even arms or top secret information b/c Obama and Puten were recorded in private stating that he would have more flexibility after the election. So in essence, he's up to something.

In regards to Syria. That region of the world has been killing each other since the BC's. If the WMD - gases were happening as often as mentioned, I would think these people would be beating feet to get out of the country and running to neighboring countries, where those countries would and should step in and correct the situation - not American solders.

In the meanwhile, this is a gigantic embarrassment for our country. Our commander in chief is taking orders from our enemies.




Title: Re: Syria
Post by: thnksno on September 11, 2013, 04:06:46 PM
I guess I been out of the news loop on this Syria BS. So, Muslim extremists are taking up arms against the Syrian gov or vice versa (which would be better), which was said to use chem weapons (WMD) against its citizens (or muslim acitivsts?)?  I know Bush or republicans always get get the blame by media/fags,  despite any facts......... but can anyone BRIEFLY give a synopsis of WTF is going on with this deal?  Is Barrack helping these kids, or those jihads douche, or just acting due to the WMD line being crossed by Syria gov?

Unfortunately there are no real Cliff Notes that will make any sense. The problems in Syria go back hundreds of years and in more recent times have become more complicated. In an effort to narrow an explanation in a couple of sentences, I offer the following.

There's a multitude of groups within Syria, many are Muslim but there's also a surprising number of Catholics. Generally Catholics are Catholics but the Muslims break up into tribes of which there are majorities/minorities and differing views as to how they practice their Muslim faith. Assad is an alawite which is a minority tribe in Syria and they run the whole show, kind of like how the blacks currently run the US. Some of the tribes have aligned together, some of them are imported for the sole purpose of disruption, some are al Queda. Assad has had his hands full due to the recent Arab uprisings keeping these folks nice and also maintaining power as a minority. For this reason he is threatened and using the force he has available against the various rebel groups in an effort to maintain power.

If you have time and want to learn more, aside from me linking a whole bunch of articles to read, here's a couple of good vids.

Syrian history - BBC documentary:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_E_oOuqsuQs (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_E_oOuqsuQs)

Journalist embedded with rebels during bombing:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BHUKBaFetJY (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BHUKBaFetJY)
Title: Re: Syria
Post by: MNNavy on September 12, 2013, 08:57:14 AM
While I agree with your overall point, I think you need to recheck your stats. July 31 was only 41 days ago. If your figures were accurate, that would be an average of almost 35 shootings and nearly 10 deaths per day.

The last update on the crime blog was July 31 as in Jan 1, 2013 through July 31, 2013.

Here's a more up to date source.

http://www.heyjackass.com/ (http://www.heyjackass.com/)

(http://www.heyjackass.com/wordpress/wp-content/uploads/2013/03/city_map-320x483.png)
OOPS!  :icon_redface: For some reason, I read your original post as reading "since July 31" instead of "as of July 31"
My bad.
Title: Re: Syria
Post by: SnowBeast on September 12, 2013, 01:38:13 PM
I'm now convinced that this is not like IRAW was, and we need to stay out of it.  I believe Barrack may be interested in war to induce patriotism and distraction to keep attention away from dismal economy, and recent race tensions. 
Title: Re: Syria
Post by: tony b on September 12, 2013, 01:52:17 PM
I'm now convinced that this is not like IRAW was, and we need to stay out of it.  I believe Barrack may be interested in war to induce patriotism and distraction to keep attention away from dismal economy, and recent race tensions.

welcome to obama's america.   :beer2:
Title: Re: Syria
Post by: greekboy on September 12, 2013, 02:13:18 PM
I'm now convinced that this is not like IRAW was, and we need to stay out of it.  I believe Barrack may be interested in war to induce patriotism and distraction to keep attention away from dismal economy, and recent race tensions.

Federal government runs out of money on October 1st. Debt ceiling will come yet again, with no real budget cuts, yet again. A war would be very convenient right now for him. 
Title: Re: Syria
Post by: thnksno on September 14, 2013, 08:41:09 PM
OOPS!  :icon_redface: For some reason, I read your original post as reading "since July 31" instead of "as of July 31"
My bad.

NP, it's a discussion!
Title: Re: Syria
Post by: thnksno on September 16, 2013, 08:57:49 AM
Funny, right here.

http://iowntheworld.com/blog/?p=203627 (http://iowntheworld.com/blog/?p=203627)